Subject for 03 May 09 Adult Discussion

Subject for 03 May 09 Adult Discussion

What follows is a series of e-mails between my cousin George and I, as well as an e-mail from Pastor Chad, which I think will be a subject for profound discussion today.

In my replies to George I may sound as if I were speaking with authority.
I am not.
My views represent my personal beliefs at this particular time, not, in any sense, eternal truths or universal truths, so please feel free to disagree with them.
(In fact if you all just nod your heads in agreement we won't have much of a discussion will we?)

Pastor Chad often speaks of a religious experience as being on a journey.
I am definitely on a journey.
These are not the views I would have given George a year ago, and may not be the views I would give him a year from now.
Two years ago we would not even have had this discussion, as I was not interested in such topics.
However participating in Abiding Savior, and in particular, in the Adult Discussion has changed me.
(Oh, I'm still a cynical, sarcastic wise-ass, and I'm still a "dirty old man", but now I'm also a spiritual, cynical, sarcastic etc.)

Dave The Heretic

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----- Original Message -----
From: wxmen
To: Dudich Dave
Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 2:11 PM
Subject: for your church group

Dave, here's a discussion idea for your church group tomorrow.

Why did God unleash this H1N1 flu on humanity?

The way I see it there are only 2 possibilities: There is no God since God is all-loving and giving people the flu is not a loving thing. There is some other god instead.

or there is no god period.

My guess is the first choice.

George

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----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Dudich
To: wxmen
Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 11:52 AM
Subject: Re: for your church group

George


Your argument sounds like that of a Fundamentalist Christian who is unable to believe in anything else than an all-powerful, all-controlling God.
Just as Albert Einstein could never accept quantum theory because he believed "God does not throw dice,"
it seems you can not accept a world view that is not based on a clockwork mechanism and a deterministic universe.
Do you also have difficulty with the Theory of Evolution, which is based on random chance mutations resulting in better adapted forms of life?
I think you ought to let go of the orthodox misconceptions that Sister Immaculata Righteousness instilled in you in parochial school,
and accept another, heretical, concept that you have not considered as a possibility - shit happens!

Exploring the Depths of God

Americans overwhelmingly believe in God. However, it is not clear that we overwhelmingly think about that belief – what it means, whether it is credible and its consequences for everyday life. For Christians, however, an unreflective faith is not possible if we take seriously the injunction to love God with the mind as well as the heart and soul. A faith immune to open and self-critical reflection is not a Christian faith, nor is it an authentic standpoint for any Christian who acknowledges the biblical insistence that we should “be prepared to give a reason for the faith” that guides our lives.

The ASLC Adult Discussion Group is examining the question “What does a Christian Believe?” Many of us have held our individual beliefs for so long that we no longer appreciate Why we hold these beliefs. The following statements present some unorthodox beliefs that may challenge us out of our complacency. They are stated as though they are dogma – an established belief or doctrine thought to be authoritative, and not to be disputed, doubted or diverged from – but they are not. Consider them instead to be theses for us to debate and discuss next Sunday, February 1. You are invited to participate in these discussions.

Many Christians view God as the all-powerful ruler of the universe whose will controls the direction of human life, the development of history, and the destiny of the entire creation. God is the cosmic monarch. Whatever happens, good or evil, is caused or permitted by this God in “his” infinite wisdom.

There may be temporary comfort in believing that everything is determined, or at least permitted by God, but there is also puzzlement and moral distress. One puzzle is why, if all that happens is in accord with the will of God, we should try as diligently as we do to make things better. Why seek to improve upon the course of events that accord with the will of God? Or, if God has ordained that we should seek improvements on the things that “he” has caused or permitted, why did God cause or permit them in the first place?

This puzzle leads to great personal anguish when it is coupled with the belief that this all-powerful monarch is good and loving. Why, indeed, would a loving God bring about, or even allow, the wasteful destruction that besets nature, history, and every human life? Surely an omnipotent God could, and, if loving, would, end, or at least diminish, the wanton brutality all around us.

The development of belief in a monarchial God emerged in the ancient world when powerful rulers arose to impose order and protect their subjects. These developments were deemed to be good. Since it soon became apparent that no human ruler is absolutely good, the equation of absolute good and absolute power was made to a divine ruler – God.

Many Christians have wrestled in the depths of their souls with the question that arises from this view of God: “Why, if God is all-powerful and good, is there so much utterly pointless evil in the world?”

There is another understanding of God – the view that God is incarnate – that God has descended into human form on earth. This view can not be proven; it can only be tested against everyday realities for its adequacy as a guide to living in the world.

The fulcrum of this faith is belief in a God who is fully in and with the world. The world is God’s place, its processes are the means through which God works, its destiny and that of the divine are intertwined. There is no one way to think about the incarnate God. However, if you begin with the conviction that love is the fundamental character of God, then everything else that is said must be compatible with saying that God is love. God is intimately connected to the world, caring for it, and committed to its good. God makes a real difference in the world, and the world makes a real difference in God. The key element of love to be considered is the vulnerability that it entails. God is vulnerable; the life of God is a dynamic process that is affected by the world. The joys in our personal lives are joys to God, and God suffers in our suffering as well.

The vulnerability of a loving God leads us away rapidly from the concept of a cosmic monarch. A God who is open to the world can not do everything that God might wish to do, and to know everything that God might wish to know. The process of the world in which God is incarnate are characterized by an element of contingency or chance. Further, it is a world in which humans are in some measure free agents who make choices. The autonomy of human beings is not and can not be abrogated by God. Instead of absolute power, God interacts with the world through the persuasive influence of love. This means that, at any given point in time, the future is to some degree open, unclear, undecided, indeterminate.

Christian faith is experiential, as well as conceptual. God impacts Christians’ lives as a divine guide. The call to repent and move away from self-centeredness and towards justice is an experience of God. God is also experienced as a presence, an immediacy that is intrinsically valuable, valuable simply for its being-with-us. A gripping experience of nature is an experience of the God incarnate in nature. An experience of communing with other individual is an experience of the God incarnate in human relationships. God is experienced as a mystery – there is an inexplicable power that affects us in the forms of healing.

Our concept of God is always an interpretation, never a straightforward description of what is there for all to see. The “absolutizing”of religious belief is a sign of fear, a desperate attempt to hide the fact that our fundamental orientations toward life are always interpretative adventures, always a risk.
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Those who know me, know that I am not this eloquent. The above borrows very heavily from Chapter 4 of “What Does A Progressive Christian Believe?” by Delwin Brown.

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----- Original Message -----
From: wxmen
To: Dave Dudich
Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 4:16 PM
Subject: Re: for your church group

Dave, I think you have to absolutize a religion or you can have no dialog. I'd be interested in a synopsis of just what you mean by God. What It can and cannot do. What is the purpose of worshiping It? Why pray to it? If it can't control things, such as disease or natural disaster, why pray to It to get well, stop a flood, etc? Phrases such as "God interacts with the world through the persuasive influence of love" doesn't have any meaning for me.

Is God the being who created all? Or is this not even a valid question in your version of religion?


I wish we lived near each other so we could discuss things in person.

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From: Dave Dudich [mailto:david11697@comcast.net]
Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 6:07 PM
To: wxmen
Subject: Re: for your church group

George

In my opinion, if people "absolutize" a religion, there is absolutely no need for dialogue i.e." I'm right. If you don't agree with me in every aspect, you are wrong. QED"
Absolutism in religion led to The Crusades, The Protestant Reformation, the Spanish Inquisition, Al Quaida, and the Taliban. Absolutism is the scourge of religion.

I think people who pray to God to stop a flood (or to cause a flood to punish sinners) are only deluding themselves with a false sense of control over inherently random processes.
To some people this gives a sense of comfort, because I think the most terrifying concept in the world is the realization that much of existence is inherently random,
and that repeating a cause will not guarantee an identical effect. I think this is a remnant of primitive society's attempts to establish some control over the humanly uncontrollable
e.g. throw a virgin into the volcano so the volcano god will not erupt. Today many people try to "be a good person" either cause they are trying to earn their way into heaven, or
they want to ward off disasters in their own lives. Wearing a scapular around your neck or lighting a candle or saying the rosary will not prevent you from getting hit by a truck while crossing the street.
God doesn't micro-manage!

I don't believe God created everything as described in of Genesis. (Even Genesis does not agree with Genesis on how God created everything.) He may have set up processes for the creation and for the evolution of both the universe and of life, but God doesn't micro-manage!
The vulnerability of a loving God leads us away rapidly from the concept of a cosmic monarch. A God who is open to the world can not do everything that God might wish to do, and to know everything that God might wish to know. The process of the world in which God is incarnate are characterized by an element of contingency or chance. Further, it is a world in which humans are in some measure free agents who make choices. The autonomy of human beings is not and can not be abrogated by God. Instead of absolute power, God interacts with the world through the persuasive influence of love. This means that, at any given point in time, the future is to some degree open, unclear, undecided, indeterminate.

I think the concept of God is solely a human experience I.e. I don't think dogs have an awareness of God, nor do inanimate, yet dynamic systems such as tornadoes and hurricanes.
Christian faith is experiential, as well as conceptual. God impacts Christians’ lives as a divine guide. The call to repent and move away from self-centeredness and towards justice is an experience of God. God is also experienced as a presence, an immediacy that is intrinsically valuable, valuable simply for its being-with-us. A gripping experience of nature is an experience of the God incarnate in nature. An experience of communing with other individual is an experience of the God incarnate in human relationships. God is experienced as a mystery – there is an inexplicable power that affects us in the forms of healing.

As far as holding God responsible for human suffering, consider The Four Noble Truths of Buddhism - (from Wikipedia)
1. Life as we know it ultimately is or leads to suffering (dukkha) in one way or another.
2. Suffering is caused by craving or attachments to worldly pleasures of all kinds. This is often expressed as a deluded clinging to a certain sense of existence, to selfhood, or to the things or phenomena that we consider the cause of happiness or unhappiness.
3. Suffering ends when craving ends, when one is freed from desire. This is achieved by eliminating all delusion, thereby reaching a liberated state of Enlightenment (bodhi);
4. Reaching this liberated state is achieved by following the path laid out by the Buddha.
Buddhists believe that suffering is not caused by some external power (God) but by one's own personal craving.

As far as discussing things in person, I am much better at expressing myself via a-mail, cause I am essentially slow-witted and do much better when I have time to reason things out.
So keep up the questions on your part - if I am not challenged I tend not to think.

Dave The Heretic










----- Original Message -----
From: Pastor Chad Kline
To: 'Dave Dudich' ; 'wxmen'
Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 8:39 PM
Subject: RE: for your church group

Oh what a fascinating discussion indeed. You both should be doing this on the ASLC blog –so everyone can see it! I can imagine there are many of us interested in getting involved in this conversation – of at least listening in so to speak.

If you’ll both permit me – may I interject my .02 cents worth?

Prove God! I can’t!

So, how can you believe in a “god” you can’t show me? Good question.

All I can tell you is… I have had experience enough with the “sacred” to know there is “something” there.
Do I believe the bible is Holy? Yes in the sense that it was written by people who were writing about their relationship with their (or at least perception of…) god. But then again, doesn’t ANY holy writing of any tradition fit this bill? Well, sure. I respect that certain writings mean something to their respective religions. That’s sacred to them. Their beliefs make it so.

So, is sacredness “man-made”? Is there such a thing as a “thing” having inherent “sacredness” regardless of human contact? I’m not sure about that, partly because it takes a person to “recognize” sacredness. It’s the old – if a tree falls in the woods and there’s nothing to hear it, does it make a sound - question. I don’t know if things are sacred before a person encounters them, but that’s a moot point. The thing is – we, people, either make things sacred by the power we imbue them, and/or we recognize the sacredness inherent in them already.

How does this relate to your conversation? I believe there is a God and there is such a thing as “sacredness”. Can I prove it? No, but I can’t prove love exists as an independent thing either. Yet we all acknowledge that there is such a thing as love.

Now for the $64,000 question – If there is a loving God, why is there such human generated evil either in the grand scale, or in the micro level… and why are there such terrible natural disasters? I can’t answer that? But the fact that there are such things doesn’t take away from our belief in love? Why should it take away from some people’s belief in God?
At the most profoundly human level… if belief in a god inspires people to want to make the world a better place – then why get them to think otherwise?
Now, I happen to think there IS a loving God… and yet bad shit happens. We are called to make a difference… and yet bad shit happens. I believe in a God that calls us to love, to make a difference, to grow, to become more than we could otherwise… and at the same time I believe bad shit happens.
But on some level, can those who believe in Love, or the power of Love, or a God of love… really make the world a better place? You betcha!

Well, enough for now…

Let’s talk!

Chad