The "Dark Side" of Grace
On 13 January we had a very interesting discussion on the subject: "If we are saved by Grace alone, then why bother being good?"
We discussed some examples of possible mis-understandings of grace, forgiveness and repentance, and how they are inter-related. For Example:
"There was a convict sentenced to life imprisonment on a maximum -security island off the coast of Australia. One day, with no provocation he turned on a fellow prisoner and beat him senseless and killed him. At his trial he gave a straightforward, passionless account of the crime. He showed no remorse and denied having held any grudge against the victim.
"What was your motive?" asked the bewildered judge.
The prisoner replied that he was sick of life on the island and saw no reason to keep on living.
"Yes, yes, I understand all that," said the judge. "I can see why you might drown yourself in the ocean. But murder?
Why murder?"
"Well, I figure its like this," said the prisoner. "I'm a Catholic. If I commit suicide I'll go straight to hell. But if I murder I can come back here to Sydney and confess to a priest before my execution. That way, God will forgive me.""
Another example:
"If you are a preacher of grace, do not preach a fictitious, but a true grace; and if this grace is true, carry a true and not a fictitious sin. Be a sinner and sin vigorously. It is sufficient that we recognize through the wealth of God's glory, the lamb who bears the sin of the world; from this, sin does not sever us, even if thousands, thousands of times in one day we should fornicate or murder."
So if grace provides us with these loopholes, if we can "sin vigorously" and still squeak into heaven - why be good?
Why do good works?
Does being good have anything to do with God at all, or are we merely trying to impress our neighbors with our righteousness?
Next week , January 20, we hope to examine some possible replies to those questions., as well as to the following questions.
When Paul asked (Romans 6) "What shall we say then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?", what was his rebuttal?
When he said:" What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace?", what was his rebuttal?
And if we believe that are saved by Grace alone, is this belief in conflict with James? : " What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? ... You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?...As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith with our deeds is dead."
More questions to think about for next week.
God offers us his Grace, but what is our part of the transaction? Can we consciously refuse to accept God's grace when it is offered?
Can we abuse grace? "Grace abuse" (i.e. "loopholes") stems from a confusion of condoning and forgiving: " To condone an evil is simply to ignore it, to treat it as if it were good. But forgiveness needs to be accepted as well as offered if it is to be complete: and a man who admits no guilt can accept no forgiveness."
Have you ever made a conscious decision to sin, with the thought of God's future forgiveness in mind?
If you went ahead and committed the sin, did you later desire forgiveness?
Which or the rationalizations of sin the Paul addresses in Romans 6-7 hits closest to home in your life?:
* If grace increases as sin increases, then why not sin extravagantly so God can give more grace? God loves being gracious, so I'll help him out.
* I'm not under law but under grace. It doesn't matter if I sin - God has given me freedom.
* Why be good, if I know I am saved? How good do I really have to be?
* I may be sinning now, but does it really matter, since God will forgive me anyway?
In your own experience, which is a more powerful motive for behavior - fear of punishment, or a desire to please someone you love?
If you have a copy of Philip Yancey's "What's So Amazing About Grace?", you might want to read Chapter 14 - Loopholes. If you don't have a copy, that's OK - we will be listening to an audio version to provide some structure to our discussions.
Hope to see you next Sunday about 9:15ish!
5 comments:
Sin and Grace... what a topic!
Loopholes in Grace... even better topic!
My opinion, if we use Grace as an excuse to sin, then I don;t think we understand Grace.
Look at John Newton, the Officer-in-the-Royal-Navy turned slave-trader turned Anglican priest BECAUSE of Grace (I have to bold this because I can't seem to find the way to highlight in this Blog thing). He lived a changed life, no more doing those things he felt displeased God (at least that's the way he probably understood it), not because God wouldn't love him any more, but because he WANTED to live a new life, a life NOT as the same person he was before.
I think if we say "let's sin, or do stuff that's not so healthy, because we know that God will love us ANYWAY, and God can't turn his (assuming God is a male- which I doubt. My opinion - God is the best qualities of: both genders, all cultures, all peoples, etc.) back on us!" then we understand neither God nor Grace very well!
Do I live my kids? Of course! Will I always? Absolutely! Am I happy with them no matter what they have done (or will do)? No. The fact that I may not like some choices they make (or WILL make) doesn't make me love them any less. BUT... if one of my kids said, "I can do whatever I want because I know you'll love me and forgive me", says to me they DO NOT understand my love for them or THEIR part in this.
When a Lutheran theologian talks about Grace (The technical term is "Justification", which means basically when God see us, God sees Christ) they (hopefully) talk about... the other side of the coin... Sanctification!
Justification is the "getting to heaven" part. We do not have to DO anything to get to heaven! God has alwyas loved you, God always will love you! God can't love you any more than God already loves you! And... You can't "make" God love you more by doing "good things". Justification!
Now that we know that... How will knowing that change the way you live HERE and NOW? Will you live out your faith in the world BECAUSE of God's love for you? If you feel compelled to share God's in the world, if you feel compelled to do good works, if you feel compelled to build people up instead of tearing down, if you feel compelled to do these things AS A RESULT of God's love for you... then you understand!
How you live your faith in the world is called... SANCTIFICATION! That's living out your faith!
James 2:17 Faith without works is dead. Show me a person that does good deeds in the world and I'll show you a person that get's it!
To a point I agree. Although I agree that people who GET the "God-loves-me" thing really do feel free to go out there and impact the world and really feel like God's hands and feet in the world, making a difference out there. But then there may be a lot of people in the world doing a lot of good works in the world, but doing them FOR god's love rather than BECAUSE of God's love.
Anyway, long-story-short, if a person says, I can do whatever, when ever I want becase God will love and forgive me... becase... THAT'S GRACE BABY!... doesn't get it.
Yes it's true that God will love them and forgive them!
AND yes it's true that they are NOT Living the faith out in as healthy a manner as they could.
Remember the story of the Prodigal Son?
Did the father love the son? Of course... always!
Did the son make choices that were NOT the best for himself and his future? Absolutely!
Were the father's arms of forgiveness open the whole time? Absolutely!
Now, the trick question...
Did the son have to ASK for the fathers forgiveness in oder for the father to forgive his son?
Yes and No
No - The father's love and forgivenss was ALWAYS there!
Yes - The son had get to a point in his life where he was able to bring himself to ask for his fathers forgiveness.
When the son had his "back" (symbolically speaking) to his father, he couldn't "see" (symbolically speaking again) that his father's arms where open to him.
It was only AFTER he actually "turned around" to SEE his father, that he was able to see his father's arms open.
Follow me?
Well, let's leave this for now and see if there are any "bites" on this line...
Questions, comments...???
Wait... I have to clarify some things I think.
Back to the Prodigal Son story:
Were the father's love and forgiveness ALWAYS available to the son? Yes!! Justification
Did the son have to Turn around IN ORDER for the fathers' love and forgiveness to have a conscious effect on him? Yes!
And when he DID turn around, and seek the fathers forgiveness (and we know in the story, he actually did get it), did it have an impact on HOW he lived the rest of his life? Yes!!! Sanctification
What you are talking about is what Deitrich Bonhoefer called Cheap Grace. The short explanation is it's Grace that's thrown out to anyone, anytime, for anything. Grace without impact. Grace without a "change of heart". Grace without any thought of the price it took to get that Grace.
Grace that's taken and used as a "get-out-of-jail-free" card. Grace that makes a mockery of itself. That's Cheap Grace! And that's what those examples are about.
Alright... back to you in the studio...
Thank you for putting that in terms that I really understand. The parent/child scenario always seems to work for me. I suppose it's because it's the one true/real love that we all understand...from both sides. It's impossible for me to really comprehend how God feels, but I can certainly understand better if I compare it to how a parent feels.
So the premise is that when we realize and really understand that God loves us, then we will change our ways and not constantly "test" him to see if we'll always be forgiven? I had a thought this morning while walking the children to school: We always have this nagging thought that asks how is it fair that we behave and act appropriately, but that others who don't also get this Grace. And I then I started thinking about the quality of life between these two groups (those who do right and those who don't) I've come to a theory that those who do not follow the "rules" do not seem to have a good quality life. They have to worry about getting caught, getting killed, suspicion of friends, someone getting ahead of them, and it's an endless downward spiral. And it seems to me that there are always obstacles in their way of becoming happy. Let's use the example of Hitler which everyone keeps bringing up. I can't imagine that his life had one joyous moment in it. He probably felt as if every minute was spent protecting himself or his way of life. Psychological torture! So in the long run, do I care whether or not God offered him grace? He was certainly punished in this lifetime and maybe at the end he realized how wrong he was.
So now the flip side. Those who try to do God's will. It seems that they have a better quality life. Now I don't mean that they are all rich and have no problems....talk about boring. Everyone has obstacles, but it seems easier to deal with them when you are with God. Also, the more you follow God's ways, the more you realize that you don't need as much worldly "stuff". Less "stuff", the need for less money, the more time for spending with those you love, helping others, etc. It's an endless upward spiral.
Okay, that's all for now. I think that was plenty for a 15 minute walk.
Some Questions On The "Dark Side" of Grace
In the 13 January Adult Forum we had a very interesting discussion on the subject: "If we are saved by Grace alone, then why bother being good?"
We discussed some examples of possible mis-understandings of grace, forgiveness and repentance, and how they are inter-related.
What if we find this such a troubling question because we are asking the wrong questions?
What if the purpose of our doing good things on earth has nothing whatsoever to do with us, and everything to do with those we help?
What if ought to do good things, solely because we have been blessed with the ability to do good things for those who have not been as blessed as we?
What if we ought to do good things out of gratitude, rather than to earn a reward or to avoid punishment?
What if the common assumption about "earning our heavenly reward" is just irrelevant?
What if our goal in life ought not to be getting into heaven, but preparing ourselves for what we are going to do once we get there? (After all we are going to be there a long, long time!)
Why do we think there will be no rules in heaven? (After all, did not Satan get cast out of heaven for not obeying the rules?)
What if all the prime locations at the heavenly feast are reserved for those who never really had a chance on earth - e.g. those kids who were born with spina bifida, those women who were raped and killed in a civil war in Africa, those people who died in the World Trade Towers on 9/11?
What if all those in heaven who are able are required to pull their share of KP (Kitchen Police)? (After all someone has got to clean the dishes for the eternal feast, and someone has got to sweep the golden streets. You didn't think God was going to do that all himself did you? :-) )
In that case, wouldn't those who have lived their lives on earth selflessly doing good for others be better prepared for their life in heaven (and therefore happier there) than those whose lives on earth were devoted to selfish self-pleasure? (Imagine Paris Hilton's chagrin when she gets to heaven (by God's Grace!), only to find out that she is expected to clean up after others! :-) )
What if the greatest joy in heaven is felt not by those who partake in the eternal feast and by those who sing endlessly praising God, but by those who serve? (“The first shall be last and the last shall be first”)
In that case is not the Question: "If we are saved by Grace alone, then why bother being good?" irrelevant?
Dave, I don't know where you got those questions, but I LIKE THEM!! Now I think we're getting somewhere. I especially like the thought that it isn't reward or punishment, but rather gratitude. And since I've thought that the life we are living now is in preparation for the future, I really like the rest as well.
So what do you think about these questions? I know that you have had issues about those receiving grace who certainly do not deserve it (in human standards). Does this help? Does the thought of those who are undeserving suffering in Heaven make it better? Matter of fact, wouldn't that be Hell? Okay, now I'm really loving these questions.
I'm going to think some more, and maybe I'll have more thoughts.
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