I want to bring up the problem with Grace... this is the place where many good-hearted Christians part ways. Here's the rubber-meets-the-road question, certainly controversial question... If God is so full of Grace... this begs the question: (Assuming salvation means/is limited to getting to heaven) Is everyone going to heaven, not matter what? A related question, but not exactly the same... Is heaven open to all, without having to go through a theological litmus test (i.e. you have to believe in Jesus first)?
Is heaven open to anyone, regardless of what they believe? This goes to heart of God' Grace. If you are not even a Christian, are the gates of heaven still open to you? That would truly be Grace-ful! If you believe you get into heaven only by "believing" in Jesus... isn't that in some way "earning" heaven? And if that is the way you "get into" (Heaven for me is a kind of non-question anyway... but I put this forward to really delve into the deep-end of the Grace-pool) then where is the Grace?
What is Grace? One definition is unmerited favor. Basically the idea is that God loves you REGARDLESS! I sometimes ask the questions... When God sees you, whom does God see? Christ! That's Grace! But do you have to be a Christian for God to see you this way? Wouldn't it follow that God see's all his children this way?
And here is where many part ways... if you believe God is REALLY Grace-filled... and God is a God of Grace... then what other alternative do you have? Even if you don't like the answer you're faced with (maybe you think it is unfair, or whatever), you can't get away from the only alternative left, except that ALL are loved by God, and ALL are welcome in heaven, no matter your theology! Anything else means you have to DO something to get to heaven... even though the very idea of Grace eliminates that possibility.
Any takers on this one?
5 comments:
Let me make sure I have this straight in my head. You're saying that no matter what we do or believe, that we have God's grace and are always forgiven. We don't even have to recognize that we've done wrong at any point and we still receive grace? So there is nothing (besides our own human conscience) to keep us acting according to God's will?
This is certainly a terrifying idea...not because everyone goes to Heaven whether they believe or not, act well or not, sin or not; but because there doesn't seem to be any reason to act in a socially responsible manner or to follow the commandments, etc. here on Earth. So now all those people who didn't feel like following the rules before and those who were following only because they were worried about their souls have even more reason to do whatever they want. What a world!
I guess I didn't have problems with Grace because I do believe that God forgives all....but first you have to recognize your sins and realize that you did wrong. And then you were forgiven. But you're saying that to even have to do that is to EARN it and that isn't grace. That's a grace that I cannot comprehend, which explains why only God can offer it. So please help me figure out (and I'm being devil's advocate here) why I should "follow the rules".
Personally, I find that acting in a "gra ceful" manner is very rewarding in itself--makes me feel good, makes others feel good, which makes me feel good (it's actually rather selfish if you think about it). And I realize that it makes me a better person, or at least I hope it is; but what if I didn't feel this way? What if I said that I was going to ignore this conscience bugging me to do better?
There are two things here... The Salvation part, and the Here-on-Earth part.
As far as Lutheran Theology goes...
On one side of the coin we have the Justification Side: We do not have to do anything for God to love us... God always will love us as much as God can, and God cannot love us any more than God already does! DO we have to DO anything for God's love... or eternal life? NO! This
But then there is the Here On Earth Among Other People Life... This is called Sanctification in theological terms:
Now that we know God loves us... how does that impact our lives? Now that we know God loves us... How will that inform how we treat others, or the environment, or anything else? Here is where we learn to live this "God loves us all" thing out in the world.
Am I saying we really don't have to treat others with respect, or follow laws, or try and lead a good life? Not to "get God's love!
But we certainly do if we intent to LIVE God's love out in the world!
Do we need to ask God's forgiveness (or frankly really ANYONE we've hurt or offended) for God to forgive us?
Let me ask you this... Is God's forgiveness operative ONLY if we ask God for it? I think God forgives us ALWAYS... It is God's nature to forgive (there is the Grace thing). But if we are not LOOKING for it, if we're not turning back to God, if we're not ACTIVELY seeking God's forgiveness out... then it's not really operative IN US!
Look at the Prodigal Son story:
The Son is squandering the father's money on wine women and song... all the while the father's love and forgiveness is available to the son.
Then the son comes to his senses and decides he must return to the fahter and ask for his forgiveness. It is only THEN that he is able and prepared to receive the father's love and forgiveness.
Now, we would all agree that WHAT the son did and HOW the son did things while he was away from the father were not the healthiest; he may have broken some laws, he might have put himself at risk of injury or death. Were those things in any way "Right"? Most likely not!
But all the wwhile the father still loved him and was waiting for his son to "come back". He was, through it all, prepared to throw his arms around his son the first chance he got.
It's just that the son hadn't "turned around". By the way, this is exactly what the Hebrew word for "repent" actually means... to turn around!
So, to answer a part of your questions directly - recognizing what he have done wrong is critical a healthy spiritual life, and of course it makes for "healthy" living among other people too I might add!
So... wouldn't the idea that we are SO loved by God, that God loves us NO MATTER what, that we might be SO struck by this that it WOULD make a difference in our lives... that we WOULD live a socially responsible life as a result of believing such a revolutionary thing!
We need laws to preserve order. People tend to "do the right thing" from primarilly three reasons;
1- fear of consquences of NOT doing the right thing... (Negative reinforcement)
2- being recognized FOR doing the right thing (Positive Reinforcement)
or 3- Doing the right thing because it is the right thing to do, regardless of whether peopel recognize you or not (a more mature sense of moral direction).
Wouldn't KNOWING God loved us in the deepest part of our being help us move towards this third "motivation"?
Saying "Do what you want, God loves you anyway... it doesn't matter, you'll go to heaven anyway!" shows to me a VERY unhealthy and immature perspective. And I would say a person that expressed this view would not really understand God's love for them very well at all!
Saying God is all about Grace in no way means it gives us a license to do what you want, when ever you want to. Saying God is all about Grace, in my opinion, should call us to more respectful and healthy relationships all around.
Look at the prodigal son... once he got back home to his father, I bet he was a "different son"! I'll bet he was more loving, and respectful, and actually treated people much better than before... because he had EXPERIENCED Grace in his life, and had a MUCH more profound understanding of his father's LOVE for him!
That's gotta change you!
I know that was a lot there, but you raised some very good points for me to clarify! And I hope I did. Let me know...
Yes, you did. I figured those were the answers you were going to give, but I wanted to be sure. So Grace is essential, but to recognize it is also essential, and once you do, then you are changed and thus your behaviors change as well. I was discussing it and we came to the conclusion that we have this thing called free will. We supposed that at the end of mortal life we are given the choice by God to accept his grace or not. To choose is to accept God, to not accept is forgo Him forever, which some say is essentially Hell. Of course, I believe it's better to try to accept His Grace now and work with it here in this life.
Thanks for the clarification!
Free will indeed!
Here's the thing with Grace... If you believe that God is a God of Grace - then you can't get away from the idea that God's grace is open to ALL!
However that doesn't mean ALL will WANT God's Grace.
Is heaven (i.e. God's love and frogiveness, etc.) open to Mother Teresa as well as Hitler? Well, do you believe in a God of Grace? But the option is still there that either one or the other may not WANT what God offers.
Yet Grace none-the-less...
That's God fer ya... What 'r ya gonna do?
Speaking Of Grace
When I first read “What’s So Amazing About Grace?” I became incensed at the basic UNFAIRNESS of Grace. How dare God bestow His love on the undeserving! Doesn’t he realize that his love should be reserved for the “good “ people, the righteous, those who live a moral life and have thereby earned his love, rather than bestow grace on the undeserving and the sinners.
For example, isn’t the Prodigal Son parable inherently unfair to the non-Prodigal Son? What’s the point of his years of faithful service to his father if his no-count brother who squandered his father’s riches on “wine, women and song” is welcomed back by his father? It’s just not fair!
Or, let me give you a more personal example. When I was going up Catholic, we were prohibited from eating meat on Fridays. Since fish was not widely available then, this meant our family ate Tuna Casserole most Fridays. (And to this day I hate Tuna Casserole!) Shouldn’t all the Tuna Casserole I ate have earned me some sort of merit over those of you who enjoyed steak every Friday? Otherwise it’s just not fair!
I am coming to believe that Original Sin, if it exists, is man’s insistence on The Law rather than on Grace. Ideally, under The Law, sinners are punished and the righteous are rewarded. The notion that nothing any of us can do will make God love us more, and nothing we can do will make God love us less – that sinners and the righteous are equally entitled to God’s Grace – seems to be in complete opposition to The Law. Its just not fair!
Perhaps much of the “ungrace” in the secular world, and indeed, in the church, arises in man’s search for fairness. Some say that only Christians are “entitled” to God’s Grace, and the rest of humanity be damned. Some say that only “born again Christians” or those Christians of their particular sect are “entitled” to God’s Grace. Carrying it even further, while I am certainly “entitled” to God’s Grace, I’m not so sure about you, brother – after all you didn’t have to eat Tuna Casserole every Friday! It’s just not fair!
If Grace is the basis for admittance to heaven, then all the good, righteous people who are living a moral life in order to earn their heavenly reward are surely going to be disappointed when they get to heaven and meet some of their neighbors! It’s just not fair!
I hope these examples convey to you the struggle I am having accepting the concept of Grace. Perhaps on reading this you think that I am a cynic or a heretic, and I have gotten everything wrong. That’s fine – these ideas are just my current opinions, and I do not claim that they were handed to me carved into stone tablets. Particularly if you have different ideas, I hope you will come to the Sunday Discussion Group and present your opinions. After all, if we all just sit around and nod and pat each other on the back, how are we all ever going to come to a better understanding of the Truth than we currently have?
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